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Genealogy => Thom(p)son DNA Project => Topic started by: uneven on November 28, 2010, 09:20:44 PM

Title: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on November 28, 2010, 09:20:44 PM
Hello, I've hit my own brick wall. Thompsons are so slippery. Any help or advice is more than welcome.

Here is my family tree as it stands now:

Levi Thompson 1835/6 - bef 1880 (possibly 1872) b: Pennsylvania or Indiana
Married abt 1855 to Rosa or Rosanna (unknown) 1837 - bef 1910 b: Indiana

    * Mary Thompson 1856
    * James Thompson 1857
    * Emily J Thompson Silcott 1859

          o Nina Silcott.

    * Rena Frances Thompson 1868
    * Albert Thompson 1870 - 1909 b: Indiana Married Ida Williamson.
          o Eva Thompson Hetzel McCann 1893 - 1968
          o Vivian Leo Thompson 1896
          o Ray Bishop Thompson 1898 - 1970 married? Orvetta Finks
                + Charles Thompson 1925
          o Cuba Thompson 1902 - 1978
          o Francis Thompson - 1904 - 1973
          o Marjorie M Thompson Sturm 1907 - 1997
          o Harry Thompson 1910
    * Mattie Thompson 1872

Levi Thompson was in the Civil war between Emily and Rena. He mustered in to the Indiana 34th Infantry volunteers company D in 1861 and mustered out in 1865 as a Corporal.

He disappears before the 1880 Census. There is a Levi Thompson death record for 1894 from Hancock County but I'm not sure that's him since he is absent from the 1880 census.

There is a history of Northern Indiana that has a Levi Thompson drowning in a stream around 1872. That one could be him.

His pension records from the national archives are pretty sparse. No mention of wife or children or a place of birth. He never received his pension. Through some incident or injury on the long march he hurt his leg and it ulcerated, never healing and causing him enough pain that he could only work part time as a tombstone maker. They were apparently waiting for him to supply some proof of birth and closed his case as of 1902. Census records alternately say he's from Indiana or Pennsylvania. I have not found a record of a grave or any record of a civil war veterans head stone being supplied.
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Mary on November 29, 2010, 09:31:28 AM
Hi Mike ---- I LOVE this
Quote
Mike Thompson from Michigan..then Indiana..then Pennsylvania and further...probably somwhere there are sheep. Call me Legion for I am many.
Thanks for starting my morning with a giggle.....

Our Thompson line is also connected with PA and IN, but I don't see any overlap with yours.....darn it! We keep hoping to find some more info on ours.

I checked our Rootsweb and we do have a couple of Levi listings, but not yours. Would you send your genealogy info to our genealogist to be included in the database for those searching in the future? The more we can add, the better the chance that sooner or later, someone will spot  match with their family. We've already had several of those occurrences!

I hope you find some other topics on the site interesting - or start some new ones! We are always searching and researching....and sometimes just having fun  ;D

Welcome to the funny farm............

Mary
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on November 29, 2010, 03:46:41 PM
Hi Mary,

I've run out several other Thompson family trees (most of which ended in Ireland) playing the odds to try and find my own family. Thompsons are just really hard to track. At one point I was excited because I had just 3 Albert Thompsons to choose from at Ancestry.com. I ran through each of them until I reached a mother country. Did tons of research. Two Ireland, one Denmark. None of them were really my Albert Thompson. Frustrating. Now I believe I'm on the right track because I only have one to follow. Levi lived poor and died young and wasn't into keeping records.

Sure. I'll send my info to the genealogist. How do I do that?
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Mary on November 30, 2010, 03:48:57 PM
You can send a Gedcom or FTM file to her at cmctavish@zimbrick.com   If all else fails, just the info on a WORD doc.

We keep building our links....one by one!

Mary
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Mary on November 30, 2010, 04:12:49 PM
You may have this already, Mike, but I thought it was interesting -

History of the 34th Indiana Infantry Contributed by Jim Beaty, jbeaty@tiptontel.com Excerpt from the Records of the Indiana Regiments in the Civil War. This book is at the Wells County Indiana Library. It was donated "8-5-1911, Compliments of J. B. Merriman, State Representative." Mr, Merriman was the husband of Cynthia Irene Beaty, daughter of William R. Beaty who was a private in A Company of the Thirty Fourth Regiment Indiana Infantry Volunteers There is a picture of the monument at Vicksburg National Park which includes the following inscription: 1st Brigade 12th Division 13th Corps 34th Infantry Colonel Robert A. Cameron Lieut. Col. William Swain Major Robert B. Jones Engaged: Port Gibson, May 1, Champion's Hill, May 16, Assault, May 22, Siege, May 23-July 4 Casualties: Killed 14, wounded 106, total 120: Lieutenant-Colonel William Swaim mortally wounded The history is: THIRTY-FOURTH REGIMENT INDIANA INFANTRY VOLUNTEERS This regiment was organized at Anderson on the 16th of September, 1861, and was composed of companies from the counties of Wells, Jay, Huntington, Grant, Howard, Madison and Blackford. The various companies were mustered into the service of the United States at different times from September 21st to October 10th. The officers at final date of muster were as follows: FIELD AND STAFF Anthony Steele....................................Colonel (others not included for brevity) Company A Captain William Swaim, 1st Lieutenant Games Gorrell, 2nd Lieutenant William Wilmington (others not included for brevity) On October 10th the regiment started for the field via Indianapolis, and on arrival at Louisville, Kentucky, went into camp, where it remained until the middle of November, when it was ordered to Camp Wickliffe, Kentucky, and from thence to Green River in February. On the 14th of February, 1862, the regiment was ordered to West Point, twenty miles below Louisville, where it was assigned to the division of General Nelson, and embarked on boats, arriving at Cairo on the 20th of February, where the 34th was detached from Nelson's Division and sent to New Madrid, Missouri, arriving there on the 3rd of March. The regiment was engaged in the siege of that place until its evacuation, on the 14th of March, where it marched to a landing, fourteen miles below, drawing with it, by hand ropes, two thirty-pound siege guns, which were placed in position on the night of the 15th, and resisted the attack the next morning of seven rebel gunboats in a two hours' engagement, sinking one boa and compelling the withdrawal of the remainder. The battery also cut off the retreat of the enemy from Island No. 10, which was the means of its subsequent capture, with its guns and garrison. Returning to New Madrid, the regiment remained there on garrison duty from April 7, 1862 to June 14th, during which time it assisted in the capture of Fort Pillow. Soon thereafter the regiment was ordered to Memphis, and from there during the summer and fall made short campaigns into Arkansas as far as Duvall's Bluffs, and finally settled down to post duty at Helena, Arkansas, during the fall and winter of 1862, with short expeditions, driving off, defeating or capturing the enemy. A very important duty was the clearing out the Yazoo Pass of timber, fallen trees, etc, which the enemy had felled to obstruct navigation, endeavoring to prevent the reaching of Vicksburg by the rear. On the 10th of April, 1863, the regiment was assigned to the 1st Brigade, General McGinnis commanding of Hovey's 12th Division of the 13th Army Corps, and remained in this command during the campaign and seige of Vicksburg. On the 10th of April it was started on the Vicksburg campaign from Milliken's Bend, Louisiana, to a point on the west side of the Mississippi River and crossed the river on transports and gunboats to Bruinsburg, on the east side of the river, on the 3oth of April, marched all night and engaged the enemy at daylight on the 1st of May, near Port Gibson, Mississippi. The regiment by command of General Hovey, supported by the 56th Ohio, charged a Confederate battery during the battle, early in the morning, and captured the two field pieces of artillery and 49 prisoners. In this battle the regiment lost 49, killed and wounded. On the 16th of May the regiment engaged in the battle of Champion's Hill, and, while advancing in line of battle, captured the 46th Alabama Confederate Regiment, with its colors, all field officers and 127 men. In this battle the 34th suffered heavy losses in killed and wounded, and among the latter was Lieutenant-Colonel Swaim, who died of his wounds on the 17th of June, 1863. Moving forward with the army, the 34th, with McGinnis' Brigade took position in front of the Confederate defenses at Vicksburg, opposite Confederate Fort Garrot, and participated in the siege until the final surrender July 4, 1863, suffering 13 men killed and wounded during the siege. On July 5th, the regiment moved with the brigade and division in pursuit of Johnston's Confederate Army, until he retired within the defenses of Jackson, Mississippi, where after a siege of nine days, Johnston evacuated during the night, crossing Pearl River and escaping eastward toward Meridian, Mississippi. In the siege of Jackson the regiment lost 8 men, killed and wounded. Returning to Vicksburg, the regiment embarked on August 4th for New Orleans, and from thence, on the 12th of September, it moved to Brashear City, Louisiana, and while in that section it took part in Banks' expedition up the Teche country, as far as Opelousas. On the return march it engaged the enemy at Carrion Crow Bayou on the 3rd of November, after which it proceeded to New Iberia, where on the 15th day of December, 1863, 460 of the regiment re-enlisted, and on the 23rd of December it embarked on a vessel for Pass Cavallo, Texas, reaching there January 8, 1864, where it remained until the 21st of February and then returned to New Orleans, and on March 20th left on veteran furlough for Indianapolis, reaching there April 1st. (William Beaty had re-enlisted and earned a bonus while home when brother Andrew enlisted and became a member of Company A for the duration of the war.) Returning to the field the regiment was placed on duty in New Orleans, where it remained until December, 1864. when in embarked for Brazos Santiago, Texas. The regiment fought the last battle of the war at Palmetto Ranch, Texas, May 13, 1865, and had a spirited engagement. Some 250 of the regiment fought 500 of the enemy, mounted with a battery of six field pieces, driving them three miles in the space of three hours, but the enemy, getting their battery in position, poured a destructive fire into our ranks, compelling the main body of the regiment to fall back, leaving Companies B and F, behind as skirmishers to cover the movement. These companies, being unsupported, were finally surrounded and forced to surrender. The loss of the regiment was 82 in killed, wounded and prisoners. After the engagement the regiment fell back to Brazos Island, and from thence it moved to Brownsville, where it remained until June 16th, and then marched to Ringbold Barracks, Texas, 260 miles up the Rio Grande, and were the first Union troops to occupy that place, which had been an important U. S. military post before the Civil War. After more than four years of military service, the regiment was mustered out at Brownsville, Texas, February 3, 1865. (This date has to be incorrect, and must be February 3, 1866 as they occupied the Ringbold Barracks after June 16, 1865.) The regiment lost during service 2 officers and 32 enlisted men killed and mortally wounded, and 5 officers and 204 enlisted men by disease; total 243.
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on November 30, 2010, 10:00:38 PM
Thanks Mary for looking up that information on Levi's regiment. I have seen a summary like that somewhere online I think. It may have been at the sons of union soldiers site. There is one family name that really sticks out in the one you've sent. Anthony Steele. I've seen on ancestry.com that there is a John L. Thompson that marries Rosanna Steele in the right time frame to be my Thompson, but I never see Levi anywhere else listed as John and have no real proof that it could be him other than it's the only time I see a marriage reference between an L thompson and Rosanna in that time. So John is one of the names that catches my eye. It seems that I found some civil war records of a tombstone for a John Thompson (again of course it could be a John Thompson from Dekalb or something).

Will it be okay if my gedcom file has others from my family in it? I've got a short tree that I use at myheritage.com. It's pretty sparse (250 or less records) but it does contain some from my Mom's family and my maternal grandmother's family (they were much easier to trace).
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Mary on December 02, 2010, 07:22:20 PM
Sure!  Just post it online (redact living members) and we'll all take a look.......or, send it as is on to Cathy at cmctavish@zimbrick.com and she'll add it to the rootsweb list.

Glad you found something interesting in the stuff anyway!

Mary
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on December 02, 2010, 09:08:08 PM
Thanks Mary for all your help! I sent it off to Cathy a few minutes ago.

When I started working on my family tree. I wasn't even sure what my grandparents names were. I always just kind of lived in the dark. When my kid tried to fill out a family tree for school and I couldn't tell him anything, I got motivated to have "a past". Everyone else seems to know where they come from.

For many branches of my tree is has been fairly easy. Thompsons..my Thompsons anyway, seem to be pretty hard to follow. I've been told by a distant family member that I'll never find them. Can't seem to accept that. Just makes me want to prove them wrong.
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: William J. Thompson on December 02, 2010, 11:01:03 PM
Hey, cousin! I sympathize with your plight. With so many Thompsons, you'd think it'd be easier to connect the dots. I grew up knowing names a few generations back on my mother's side, with loads of aunts and uncles and records and stories and stuff... My dad, on the other hand, was an only child, his parents were divorced, and no one had any information on the Thompson side of things at all! We're slippery people all over, apparently!  ::)

Ancestry has been a good resource as far as census records go. I've traced back a few generations, but run aground at 1830. My John Thompson (darn those common names!!) just appears out of nowhere. The fact that the whole family for his generation were apparently illiterate farmers doesn't help a great deal. Not a lot of filling out the family Bible and writing diaries, y'know.  :'(

Unfortunately, no Hoosiers in my branch of the tree yet. We were all in Tazewell county, Virginia, so no help to you there. Keep pluggin' away, a lead's bound to surface somewhere!
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on December 03, 2010, 05:08:53 AM
Thanks for the encouragement William. I hate to say it, but it's nice to know others are in the same boat. In your case, exactly the same boat! My guy springs out of the soil too. Census records are only so helpful and I've already run into several instances where people were listed who were dead or their ages and names were wildly off. My guy was poor, none of his kids knew where he was from and he died in his 30s. I'm going to have to make some trips and start walking cemeteries to see if I can find some sort of grave marker. I think it will be tough though because he lives in a pretty blurry time.

Have you done any DNA testing? It hasn't been that helpful for me yet, but I think that is because participation among Thom(p)sons is pretty light compared to our biomass on the planet.
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Mary on December 03, 2010, 09:48:53 AM
Mike --

Forgive me, but I'm old  ;)

Did you post a copy of your DNA anywhere?  We actually have several members who sent my husband their DNA or posted it and found out that they are related on 67 markers with only 1 or 2 off (they DO spring from same family).  I have compiled and discussed this with so many, I can't remember if I saw yours.......?

William...we had a dead end too but it's our Antrim, Ireland end (Scotland > Ireland > US)   NEVER GIVE UP....NEVER SAY DIE!!!

Mary
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on December 03, 2010, 03:42:19 PM
I have a few accounts on ybase and ysearch. I'd love to have someone else take a crack at it! I'm never sure if I'm looking for the right thing. One thing I run across all the time is that I have 46 markers with ancestry.com so there is some conversion to be done when I search on ysearch. Would you like to see my original ancestry.com numbers or the ysearch/ftdna converted numbers?

Thanks much.

mike
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Thomas Thompson on December 04, 2010, 10:56:10 AM
Hi Mike

     I have been working on other projects haven't been active on the forum. Booner and I were able to convert the DNA results form Ancestry to the Family Tree format. I have a spread sheet using the DYS data for each marker and have added those who have only 2-4 distance from mine. I realize that is not much of a help to those who differ greatly form my self established model.
  The family Tree has started a new program of publishing the Thompson markers. I am in Group 9 perhaps because on the Irish connections.
 I also found several possible connections in the unrelated or 'need more information, section.
  I have written a new History of Clan Thomson for our Lord Lyon Petition and have included a short section on DNA Thompson connections. At the present time I am reconsidering that. Is it appropriate? I can not find any references to DNA in all of the various Lyon Court cases - I am not sure it will add anything to our case and am fearful of doing anything that might harm our position. I have emailed several experts asking for advice but to date none of them the taken the time to reply. I have the same problem on how to address our blazon desires on the cover letter. I guess I have gotton off topic.
Tom
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on December 04, 2010, 01:17:15 PM
Hi Tom,

Given what I've found about my own Thompsons and DNA it seems pretty inconclusive all the way around. The only thing I could definitely say about Thom(p)sons in general is that we encompass a large swath of the genepool with Thompsons in multiple different DNA groups. One thing I found disconcerting when I asked some of the MacTavish crowd about their DNA was the implication that DNA proves Thompson is MacTavish (something they still seem to hold to on their facebook site). That's a position I don't think even their Chief supports, given articles I saw on electric Scotland. I'm positive some MacTavish's became Thompsons, why dispute it? From what I've read it's really common for individuals to join a larger clan and take their name. I don't think every Thompson was a MacTavish, that seems ludicrous given that not all Thompsons even fall under the basic Western European DNA group R.

That's one thing I really like about this group. Sanity. My proto-Thompson's may be genetically Anglo Saxons or Danes or Jutes or Britons. One way or another I think they made their way to Northern Britain, then Northern Ireland and then to the U.S. along with hundreds of other Thompson Families on the same journey. They lived and loved, fought and died as Thompsons.

As I move through my own DNA results it seems like I'm moving through the work of others over years of time. I fit exactly in OGAP group 19. Nobody thinks that's relevant now but it was nice to fit something! That group is supposed to represent the western isles and highlands. In 2007 I'd have been a Highlander. A few years later and those groups have fallen by the wayside. Once you have more evidence to consider, they just fall apart.

Given how fast and loose things are with DNA. I think you're right to question the use of DNA evidence in official work with Lord Lyon. 

For fun and clarity I made a few maps for myself. There's one Thomson, one Thompson and I fused together a Thom(p)son map myself using the 1891 census at world names profiler. http://thompsonhunt.blogspot.com/2010/10/thompson.html

I'd like to read the new history of Clan Thomson.

Should I post my DNA as a reply to this thread or upload a file somewhere? My ysearch id is QNYHC (one of many) it may contain mistranslated numbers. 

mike
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Mary on December 05, 2010, 09:26:20 AM
I have a few accounts on ybase and ysearch. I'd love to have someone else take a crack at it! I'm never sure if I'm looking for the right thing. One thing I run across all the time is that I have 46 markers with ancestry.com so there is some conversion to be done when I search on ysearch. Would you like to see my original ancestry.com numbers or the ysearch/ftdna converted numbers?

Thanks much.

mike

YES!  We have some from other members and could compare. Please either post or send to us at tomaryfarm@yahoo.com
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Thomas Thompson on December 05, 2010, 07:30:35 PM
Hi Mike
   I have a question about your comment I copied below:
[One thing I found disconcerting when I asked some of the MacTavish crowd about their DNA was the implication that DNA proves Thompson is MacTavish (something they still seem to hold to on their facebook site). That's a position I don't think even their Chief supports, given articles I saw on electric Scotland. I'm positive some MacTavish's became Thompsons, why dispute it? ]
   I also noted a similar thought train on your T hunt blog.(nice blog).
  Over the past three years I have been searching the Scottish records for information on any all all Thom's. I know that Black and the MacT's both say that many of the MacT changed their names to Thomson, but I can not find any facts or  records of actual name changes. In all of the Argyle parishes I found a single, 1803, entry showing a MacTavish changing his name to Thomson. However, I did find several Thomson's living as a Sept of the Cam[bell family (Auchenbrack). Later at one of the Games, I had a chance meeting with the past President of Clan Campbell USA (C. Thomson) of CA. He was  very  knowledgeable about his Scottish ancestors and their interactions with the Campbell's. Based on his account and verified by a couple of other sources I am satisfied that in that limited local there were Scottish Thomsons and they were a Sept of the Campbell family. At some future date I hope we can see their DNA test results.
  If you know of any  Thomson/MacT DNA results or even any 16th-17th century Thomson's associated with the MacT's I would really like to know about them for our records.
Tom
 
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on December 05, 2010, 10:06:41 PM
Here is some text from the info section of the Clan MacTavish facebook page:
--------
If your last name or the maiden name of someone in your family line is MacTavish, Thompson, Thomson, Cash, Kash, MacCamish, MacCash, MacCavish, MacComb, MacCombie, MacComich, MacComish, MaComie, Macomie, MacCosh, MacLaws, MacElhose, MacLehose, MacTavish, McTavish, Mactavish, Mactavis, M'Tavish, MacTeague, MacThomas, Stephens, Stephenson, Stevens, Stevenson, Tavish, Tawesson, Teague, Thom, Thomas, Thomason, Thomasson, Tod, or Todd, and all variant spellings you are welcome to join us in celebrating our shared Scottish Highlands heritage.

For those of you interested in DNA. The DNA has been decoded for almost all the Clans. MacTavish and Thompson have the same DNA. Thus supporting the fact that MacTavish and Thompson ARE THE SAME. It has also proven that the MacTavish and the Campbell are in NO WAY related.
-----------

At this point if you're me, then you're wondering "why are there 0 Mactavish's and 2 or 3 Campbells showing in my distant matches?" and what's "The DNA" for a clan?

I just tried to go look at the "proof" again. Their forum keeps asking me to log in and I can't see the thread anymore. It was this odd listing of some modals for clan Donald and others including Campbell. Along with Mactavish. These were 12 or 25 marker modals. It was from the early days of DNA testing. Wish I could get my hands on that again. Very frustrating! It was so unhelpful I just quit talking to them.

They're always "on message". It's creepy. On their facebook page, I felt like they were actively steering people away from DNA as a tool for genealogy. It was as if they were saying "MacTavish is Thompson so don't worry about looking anything up for yourself" (insert Jedi mindtrick wave). In fact that's the reason they gave me the link to their forum, because a member was talking with me about signing up for DNA testing. They interjected with the sales pitch and I got the hint.

Here's that forum link. Doesn't work for me anymore. http://www.clanmactavish.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=871

Anyway, my DNA looked more like Clan Donald than MacTavish. So much so that I began looking at their DNA project!

I remember thinking at the time, well it's nice for them that they found a Thompson who matches up with a MacTavish. I'm not that Thompson.

So that's why I agree with you on questioning the use of DNA as a proof of clan membership. DNA is a double edged sword. If you were clan MacTavish, on some minor level you might have DNA "proof" that a MacTavish and a Thompson are related and you publish that. Then someone like me comes along with a few hundred other "snowflakes" and you start to realize that not even all the Thompsons are related.

Kinship has never required a bloodline. Having read a few things online about the Clan system and the practice of taking the clan's name upon entry. I could acknowledge the remote possibility that MacTavish, or MacThomas or any other person really might pick Thom(p)son. To me, although unorganized, we appear to be the Dominant Thom family in northern Britain. Numbers are on our side.

Here in the U.S. German Thomsens changed their names to Thompson. It's just easier to get along when you're apart of the larger group.

I've read somewhere that the MacTavish clan says they changed their name to Thompson because of retribution. If that were the case then, it would only apply to a few individuals because there are still MacTavish's in existence. Also, it seems to me that that particular game only works if you're joining a larger group of existing Thompsons. Otherwise, who are you blending in with? Considering DNA for all Thompsons only hurts their case further.

By the way, I think I'm having some kind of Matrix moment because reality has remade itself. Not only can I not view the DNA forum post but the electric scotland page I link to in my blog: http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/stoz/thomson2.html seems to be totally missing the information, I believe from Steven MacTavish posted below his father's letter, where he acknowledges that not all Thompsons are related.
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on December 05, 2010, 11:22:20 PM
Oh! I forgot to say. I have no proof that any MacTavish changed their name to Thompson. I also have no proof that they didn't. I'm absolutely certain that somewhere someone will be a Thompson and be a genetic match in some range for a MacTavish. I can't dispute that. Why try?

Along those lines, if you were to tell me that several families named Lee in Hong Kong changed their name to Thompson in order to fit in, gain better employment, have opportunties during British rule...I'd only be able to agree with you. It's your family man, shout it out to the world! I have no reason to dispute it. Now if you tell me that all Thompsons are Lees based on that...then, well I have to be skeptical because nothing is ever all anything.

I think MacTavish has done enough on it's own to disprove it's case by using blanket statements trying to claim all Thom(p)sons and drawing some line between them and Thomsons..splitting them with MacThomas.

There again, if you were to tell me that all Thomsons are MacThomas then I have to be skeptical. Are some Thomsons MacThomas? Absolutely.

Are some Thompsons Thomsons? You'd be insane not to recognize that. All? nope, I can't do it. I just can't. Some, absolutely! Most, probably. All...

Now, having said all that, I can really get behind the "p or not to p" because it just makes sense. I've seen examples of it in census records and in my other families. It's a simple spelling change. Happens all the time. Who cares if the court clerk puts a "p" in your name? All you want is to avoid a noose!

My great grandfather is Lloyd Seelye. He spells his name two different ways. Seely and Seelye. From him on it's spelled Seelye. As you go back in time you can see members of the family alternating it's spelling as it suited them until a few generations above Lloyd, there is no "e" on the end and it stays that way until you get back to Britain. My Grandmother is no less a Seely because of the "e" tacked on to her name.
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on December 06, 2010, 05:23:01 AM
Okay. These are the kinds of statements I think are unsupportable (from the Clan MacTavish facebook page):

"Thus supporting the fact that MacTavish and Thompson ARE THE SAME. It has also proven that the MacTavish and the Campbell are in NO WAY related."

Forgetting for a moment what they're saying about Thompson...look at what they say about Campbell!

You can't prove that. You can't prove that two whole surnames are not in any way related. Until every single MacTavish and Campbell on the planet have been tested you can't even get close to that statement. Even then if they were all tested you'd have to exhume every corpse and test it, because the linking person may have died.

Further if MacTavish is Thompson then you're left with the daunting task of proving that every Thompson on the planet in no way matches a Campbell.
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: William J. Thompson on December 06, 2010, 11:56:02 AM
Have you done any DNA testing? It hasn't been that helpful for me yet, but I think that is because participation among Thom(p)sons is pretty light compared to our biomass on the planet.
I haven't made the DNA plunge yet...I'm still trying to make sense of how it all works! Too many numbers for my brain.  :-\  When I save my pennies, I may pop for a chromosomal comparo to see what comes up. But as you've found, I fear I may just end up a "citizen of the world."
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on December 06, 2010, 01:28:08 PM
Yeah, DNA has been a bit disappointing for me. Mainly because, at this time, I have some pretty rare values. A person wants to have a few isolating markers so that they can tell who relatives are among their matches...but in my case there are so many that effectively everyone gets weeded out.

What you've said about the cost is really informative. It's expensive. For me it was a totally selfish act that took a hundred plus dollars away from my wife and kids. Cost alone helps to determine who will be tested. So I could be the only Thompson like me for years because of lack of interest, fear or cost of participation.

Of course the golden nugget that's held out there is the opportunity to find a Thom(p)son...or anyone really who is actually related to me through that single male line. Since I know the least about my own father's family it's actually a pretty good fit.

So in a totally self serving way, I want every male Thompson to test because it will help me find them and they may know more than me...or we could connect the dots until we meet up in the middle. It may never tell me where in the world my family is from, but it could tell me that you and I are related. Then we start digging to figure out where and how our families lost each other!
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Mary on December 06, 2010, 06:25:28 PM
Okay ----DNA.  There are (who knows HOW many) many "lines" of Thom(p)son.  It is a patronymic surname, so when the surnames were "set" (ours would have probably been around 12-1300), the then-current Thom(p)son offspring became surnamed Thom(p)son (or some variation). Surnames were "set" in the highlands some 300 years later. So, if the original Thoms were not related, their DNA streams are going to be totally different even though they share the same last name and history (for the Scottish ones). HOWEVER, you CAN tell where the line originated - Ireland, Scotland, England, Germany, etc from your 67 marker (I'm not sure about fewer markers) DNA test and various associated pages. That starts narrowing the field. You may be disappointed to find out that your ancestors are not Scottish....but the whole point of the DNA testing is to find out WHO YOU ARE, so it shouldn't really matter that you are/aren't Scottish! Our use of DNA isn't for "proving" a right to belong to anything. It's to help members find a clue as to their line's origins (in whatever country) and if they may be blood-related to another member who might have genealogy info to share.

MacThomas is in/around Glenshee, MacTavish (BTW Clan Campbell's history clearly states originated from the Campbell line, "MacTavish ('Son of Thomas' in Gaelic) sept, descended from a Thomas Campbell" from the ccsna.org site,  so I find their distancing from Campbells strange!) may have had some local Thoms but they didn't have a clan until at least 1793 or, possibly, 1993. Take your pick. Under the old clan system, you would have attached yourself to a strong clan and MacTavish (if a clan) wasn't a large, strong one.....so chances are Thoms would have aligned with Campbell or maybe Donald. No problem there. BUT, to claim the bulk of Thom(p)sons as a whole belong to ANY clan other than their own is questionable. And, when you add the location of the Thoms versus the location of MacTavish/MacThomas...it's even more obvious that, while local Thoms may have joined them, the vast majority were far too far away to have done so...and, according to the Scottish Parliament, Thomsons were recognized as their own clan, so those in the borders or Lothians already had a clan presence. And THAT clan was probably made up of Thoms who may not all have been originally related - but they had the same surname and they lived, fought and died together as a clan.

The fact you have Donalds and Campbells isn't surprising if your Thoms were in the Argyll area as the MacDonald lands abut the Campbell clan territory. Three or more clans of Campbells surrounded the MacTavish land (depending on the era).

Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Thomas Thompson on December 06, 2010, 06:43:01 PM
Mike

   The Family Tree Thompson DNA project has some 500 test results. There are at least 20 different lines of related linkages. The surnames range from Brown, Owens,Laus, Ellis,King,Mings,Daily,Gorden,McClullan, Hanks and 3 with MacCombish spelling variations. The point as I see it is that regardless of the surname, many of us have similar DNA.
    McGee comparisons use as a modal the 1st 4 markers out of the first 12, and the 1st 4 out of the 13-25 markers, and the 1st 2 out of the 26-37 markers, and the 1st one out of the 38-47 markers. Each DYS has a range of expected values. Using an Infinite allele Mutation model the time to most recent common ancestor would be between 0 and 270 years.
    So far I think there are 4 (surname only connected) members of Clan Thompson Society who had a common ancestor from the same general area in Scotland. Because the actual numbers of same surname individuals was limited in the 1600-1700 period, it is probable that the Clan Thomson (or family Thomson) lived in that area.
   You reference the clan system of individuals adopting the clan surname as a possibility. I suggest you consider the fact that Thomson's were lowland. In general lowland families had evolved beyond the clan system some 200 years earlier. A true clan had to have both numbers and a strong chief. A single land owner and a single tenet do not make a clan. Even if you count all 16 same surname individuals in all of Knapdale.(1694 Hearth tax roll) you still don't have a clan.
    In the mid 1500's there are 40 fighting Thomson men listed by name from the Annan/ Dumfries area.They were not a true clan but they were family.
In fact there were several brothers listed from different villiages.
    Mike you have the Thomson surname and it is possible that your biological father had a different surname. It doesn't really matter. You are what you are and today you are a Thompson. In in future someone will test with a DNA linkage and will have a paper trail. Then you will truly know who you are.
Until then you are cousin to us.
Tom
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on December 06, 2010, 10:41:15 PM
Thanks Tom and Mary. I agree on all counts. Though, largely because I am a Thompson I will continue to set a tone of argument while agreeing and add more information to the conversation than anyone wanted.

It seems to me that even if my Thompsons were Thomsens, they decided to throw their lot in with the other Thompsons they lived around. As far as I can tell we've been Thompsons for about 180 years. I hope to push that back even further.

Historically, thinking about the movements of the Ulster Irish through America in the 17 and 1800s. We're most likely in that group. I'm 89% sure. We end up living in the same areas and going to the same Baptist churches that took over on the frontier where the Presbyterian churches left off. My Thompsons in Indiana are surrounded by Thompsons and others from Ireland. Our Thompson family story is that we're British. Being a border clan makes perfect sense for us in the context of the dates I have to work with. I like to say that I think we're Scots or close enough to hit one with a stick. I think that still holds.

Maybe that's what I'm afraid of. The shoe fits too well and too easily (except of course that I can't prove with a paper trail that I'm wearing a shoe).

----Begin long boring story----

When I was in middle school, I ended up with a book on Scottish clans. I can't tell you how, all I remember was that it was in my hands and in it there were family names and tartans. So there was Thomson. The tartan looked like someone had thrown up plaid after eating a lot of grass, dirt and carrots. No "p" though so I disregarded it. As a teenager, I ended up at Scottish fest with my future wife. For fun we looked for people claiming Thompson and there were the Campbells waiting for me. I figured they just told everyone they were Scottish to sell more Haggis helper. I ignored it. At our wedding my wife wanted me to wear a kilt. Mercifully for those in attendance, I declined. I can't claim it. I put it away. I'm a Thompson, we don't have anything.

Something snapped though when I was trying to help my kid fill out a family tree and I didn't even know my grandparents full names, where they were born, who their parents were. Instead of a tree, I sent my kid to school with a stick, just like every time I went to school and listened to all the other kids but couldn't participate in family tree day.

When I was a kid, we had this family crest/coat of arms project in art class. My friend brought in an actual coat of arms from someone in his family. I asked my dad if we had something like that? He said he always thought I would make one.

So I started with nothing. I've never been able to claim a group for my Thompsons. I could totally buy into the pitch over at Clan MacTavish and be done with it, but I'm on an actual journey not a trip to Disneyland. I don't need to be a Scot or Irish, British or German or Romanian (even though that's pretty cool). I just want to get this right. The old man told me to.

----end long boring story-----

As far as DNA goes. I need to spring for some testing from FTDNA. I intend to actually have my Dad tested to see where the two tests differ. I think I may have a bad copy on a couple of key numbers and if I get him the 67 marker test we can actually compare what FTDNA would have as opposed to Sorenson/Ancestry.com.

For my curiosity, I think I'll also need to dig for the extra money to do more SNP testing. Where I've left off with that R1b - S128...I wouldn't be related to any Thompsons, they would all be related to me. In fact, most people in Western Europe would be. So I need to verify that it goes further.

I feel a bit driven to pursue DNA, because right now, I am the line. I thought I was going to find that I was A Thompson in a long a line of others, but at the moment I'm THE Thompson so I have to represent.

I've been trying to squeeze as much information out of those 46 markers as I can. It's not easy, but I have a few ideas about why I bring all the germans and scandinavians to the party at the genepool.

The first is obvious, I'm a Thomassen or Thompsen and we changed out names after coming to the U.S. sometime before 1834 to better blend in with the locals.

The second one incorporates a the TMRCAs of my closest matches (usually in the 500 years ago range) and includes my matches from Scotland and the borders. During the multitude of wars in Europe around the time of the Reformation, Scots and I'm sure Northern English joined armies and served as soldiers of fortune and guards in Germany, Denmark, Sweden. Many of them, of course, stayed. Even in Poland there are still families that have Polishized Scottish names.

The Third one covers the broadest spectrum. It doesn't take in to account the TMRC but seems geographically sound and might explain why I look like people so dispersed on the eastern and southern side of England and Scotland, in the western isles and around the edge of Ireland and maybe why it's hard to figure out what R1b I am and why sometimes R1a people show up in my 1 to 50 generation matches. Maybe I'm actually one of those Jute/Angle/Saxon/Germanic invader guys? Lowland Scots has a lot of borrow words from Danish.

The fourth is it's all coincidence.
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on December 07, 2010, 07:30:09 PM
Again, I should point out that as far as I know, my Thompsons sprang out of the ground in Pennsylvania and Indiana and DNA has just been sort of inconclusive. I have nothing to go on and I've followed endless leads chasing things down. My blog is really meant to be that message in a bottle, to show that I went through a process of growth and to present my own evidence to someone in the future who may find it.

My last long boring story shows that, if anything, I've danced around being a Scot since I was 13. I just can't seem to get that definite answer anywhere. It's irritating because other people seem so sure. I know that as soon as I pick something and decide that's the thing, it'll get snatched away and I'll just have been a jackass.

When looking at DNA. I always run into the same guy. Miles Kehoe. He's first generation American with an old Irish name. I run into him all the time because we have many of our oddest numbers in common. We're most likely not related, but when he looks for matches he gets the same sorts of things I do. Also he gets no Kehoes.

His family has been in Ireland for at least 300 years. They believe they came from the north and moved down to Wexford. At one point he was hypothesizing that he was some some kind of Gallowglass (spelling?) descendant. I contacted him once, he was not very interested in talking...most people don't want to find a Thompson in their closet. So I moved on. I hunted around and looked through possible leads for myself. The French DNA project (normans). There he was..Kehoe. Scottish L21 project..Kehoe. He appears all over the place. Always hunting the same things I'm hunting.

Recently, I read a blog post from him on a DNA forum that would sort of explain why he wasn't interested in talking. His DNA is everywhere and he'd spent enough money to prove that it couldn't prove anything. He basically called it quits. The only Kehoes that look like him are those he could pick up phone and call in Ireland.
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on December 07, 2010, 08:37:49 PM
Had to go take care of some sick kids...there.

So, I guess that's why I'm here. The clan Thom(p)son society seems to be the most reasonable and willing to say that not all Thompsons spring from the same guy in the highlands. Being an Ulster Scot or Borders English is the most likely scenario for me given my limited education in migrations through the U.S. and Thompsons in general.

I feel like I can kind of back up Miles Kehoes Scoto-Norse or Britano-Norse idea and it seems to fit my odd DNA. Unlike him I don't have 300 years of history or another Thompson in Indiana or Pennsylvania to call but I do have the cruel hand of fate on my side.

Until I claim something, own it and get behind it, I'll never be proven wrong and find out what I really am.

So I think I should call myself a Scot, get a tartan, steal my neighbor's sheep, save my pennies and join Clan Thom(p)son. That way my 1st cousin 16 times removed can call me from the Netherlands and tell me we're Dutch. Just to let you know though, I'm keeping the sheep.
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Thomas Thompson on December 08, 2010, 11:30:26 AM
Hello Mike  :) ;D ::)

    Most of the so-called experts say the Thomas naming convention began with either the Norse or Christan Knights returning from battles with the Muslims.
Assuming that is true, I am beginning to have real concerns about your seemly obsessive fascination with sheep. The historical reviews seem to indicate that the expanded sheep industry only became a major factor in Scotland after the fallout of 1745. Supposedly the 'Chiefs' sold out their tenets for higher rent from the English sheep farmers. Of course the jokes about the Scottish/sheep affections already existed.
  My point is you have ALL the expected traditions of a TRUE Scotsman.  ;D  :)Get a kilt, steal some sheep (from your English neighbors) and sell them for the penny's to become a supporting member of Clan Thom(p)son Society.
Tom
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on December 09, 2010, 04:35:15 AM
Haha! It's a plan!
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Thomas Thompson on December 19, 2010, 09:28:27 AM
Hi Mike
  Sorry it took me so long to find bits and pieces of some old research I have accumulated.
  I think this was found in "Winning the West" by Theodore Roosevelt Vol 1.
   Your mixed DNA may be due to a reintroduction of European blood. " ...it will be sufficient to refer the reader seeking further information of the [subject of Scottish influence in Europe] to refer to the following works: (1) Fischer, The Scots in Germany (1902). The Scots in Eastern and Wesstern Prussia (1903), The Scots in Sweden (1907); all three volumes published in Edinburgh. (2) Steuart, Scottish influences in Russian Glasgow (19113), : Papers relating to the Scots in Poland, Edinburgh (1915), and numerous essays by the same author in recent volumes of the Scottish Historical Review. (3) Donner, The Scottish families in Finland and Sweden, Helsingfors.(1884). (4) Forbes Leith, The Scots Men-at-Arms and Life guards in France, Edinburgh (1882,Vol2).
   
.You might also look in the Register of the privy Council. v 8. pp. lxxxviii-xci and the amended list in v 9., pp. Lxxx-lxxxi. The Plantation in Ulster.
For the most part the settlers were selected from Dumbartonshire, Renfrewshire, Ayrshire, Galloway, and Dumfriesshire. It was a slow steady stream of colonist. Gardiner the Historian say that in 1640 it was estimated that there were 40,000 ablebodied Scots in the north of Ireland.Sir William Petty states 'that a very large emigration had taken place from Scotland after Cromwell settled the country in 1652," and writing in 1672 he estimates the Scots population in Ireland at 100,000 Before the Ulster plantation began there was already a considerable Scottish occupation of region nearest Scotland. These settlements were confined to Counties Down, and Antrim.which were not included in the scheme of the plantation..
  These are just a few of sources to check.
Tom
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on December 19, 2010, 02:44:34 PM
Thanks much for those references Tom.

Those timeframes for Scots abroad would help explain many of my 500 plus or minus TMRC DNA matches outside of he British Isles. I was reminded of the movement of Scots as bodyguards when I was talking to the lone Steiner that shows up in my list. Her family story is that they were descended from a bodyguard to a German noble person and gained acclaim by strangling an attacking bear to death with their own two hands.

I can't guarantee that they were Scots but ... I mean, if they had then eaten the bear uncooked on the spot, that would have cemented it.

Also of interest in my hunt, I got off my butt and contacted the Knowltons. They're always coming up on top of my searches. I place them in Kent because HON and many Knowltons seem to agree they're from Kent. It turns out though that there is little real evidence they are from Kent and they dispute that claim now.

I talked with a guy who is running their DNA project and they have a bit of an issue. Knowlton isn't very popular, even in Britain. It's most popular in the U.S. and Canada from Nova Scotia down to Massachusetts. Oddly though the family appears to be split in two. One part is R1b and looks an awful lot like me. The other is T not related in tens of thousands of years.

They also largely dispute being from Kent. They were very interested in looking into my family because Knowltons don't seem to match many people at all, but there are some non-knowltons who seem to match them very closely...and not many others.

What's nice is that these Knowltons would be about 200 years away for a common ancestor (if they were Thompsons which I assume is the correct thing to be) and that puts us in the range of the ancestors I know about.

They're possibly from Nova Scotia in the 1600s (which is interesting all by itself) and I've looked at a few pedigree charts and I see the name Thompson popping up as a middle name among their relatives. It seems like an odd middle name.

They also mentioned Nortons in their early history in that they married into the family or may be misspelled Nortons themselves. I also have a fairly close Norton in my DNA matches.

Here's another odd thing I think for these Knowltons. I see that their branch, living in Ulster New York in the 1700s is Presbyterian. You don't have to be Scottish to be Presbyterian, but ...it seems fishy anyway.

I looked up some of the history of Nova Scotia and they received a bunch of Scots (I think during the clearances) and they also actively recruited people from New England and a bunch of Lowland Scots and Borderers took them up on it.

Of course I see connections everywhere, I'm sure even when there aren't any.

mike
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on December 21, 2010, 06:20:38 AM
Well, I poked at it enough that I got an answer! Although I used Ancestry.com for my dna test, I've put my results out there almost anywhere it's free. One of those is Genetree. I put a question in to them about my results (with the odd 16.2 ad DYS458 which shows as 17 for Familytree DNA) and they came back that if I'm R1b1b2 with 16.2 then they predict that I'm U106 or S21 which puts me on a different branch of the DNA tree than the Northwest Irish or even many Scots.

I found it a relief to have some official statement and it goes a long way toward explaining why my DNA matches are all over the place but few and far between. Of course, I'd have to pay for real testing to verify it, but I don't like paying for things.

As far as family history goes, it doesn't mean much unless you're going back 1500 years or so. What it does mean is that I can whittle my search down to about 20% of the population of Britain and 6% of Ireland.

Many people call it "Frisian" so I thought I'd look up Frisian and Scots and came up with a Scots language site with this information on it:

Quote
The Fryske or Frisian language has a special significance for Scots speakers as Frisian, English and Scots all derive from a common origin. It is often stated that Frisian is the West Germanic language most closely related to English, though, in fact, it is Scots that is the West Germanic language most closely related to English. Few studies have been made of the relationship between Frisian and Scots (researchers concentrating on English only) though both have much in common linguistically and historically. As well as belonging to the same language group, both language communities came under the increasing influence (and political control) of neighbouring languages. By the end of the 16th century Frisian had come under Dutch control and Scots came to be influenced by English. The Fryske Akademy was founded in 1938 as a centre for research and in order to promote education in the Frisian language and culture. It serves as a model for what might also be possible for the Scots language community.


So, Ironically, although it makes me less "Celtic" in the eyes of some, it actually may serve to cement my ties to Scotland and the British Isles in general and would be good supporting evidence for being an Ulster Scot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on January 08, 2011, 02:05:02 PM
Well it's still a wall, but it's got more bricks now.

I took Tom's advice not to discount that 1894 death record for Levi and went ahead and reinstated my ancestry.com account. I found several people who had that record in their tree and asked one of them for more about it. It turns out that the Levi Thompson in that record moved from Virginia in the 1870s and was married to Elizabeth who also has a death record around the same time in the same county. I could verify what my contact was saying by looking through the records myself.

Then I took a step back and decided not to discount 1890 or records from outside the county and I found him again through his military record. He's listed in an 1890 veterans schedule in Hopewell Ohio with a postal address of Tamah Ohio..(which is really Tama I think). He's there with a disability of "Stiff Ankle". He's also listed on the same page with two names one Levi Thompson and another less readable first name with the last name Thomson.

So Thanks Tom for the good advice!

This means he's alive in 1880 which is when you list where you're parents are from. Unfortunately I still haven't been able to find him there. I imagine his name is misspelled. Only because he's listed as Lean Thampson in 1870 and Levi Thompon in 1860 (I know it's him because the family is with him).

Now that he's separate from the wife and kids he'll be harder to find if there's any error in his name.

I also think he may have been going through the process to try and admit himself to the Home for Volunteer Veterans in Dayton Ohio. I don't find him among the Thompson listed in the Veterans home records, but again it could be a spelling issue with whoever is adding these entries.

So now my revised family tree looks like this:

Levi Thompson 1835/6 - bef 1900 b: Pennsylvania or Indiana possibly died in Ohio.
Married abt 1855 to Rosa or Rosanna (unknown) 1837 - bef 1910 b: Indiana

    * Mary Thompson 1856
    * James Thompson 1857
    * Emily J Thompson Silcott 1859

          o Nina Silcott.

    * Rena Frances Thompson 1868
    * Albert Thompson 1870 - 1909 b: Indiana Married Ida Williamson.
          o Eva Thompson Hetzel McCann 1893 - 1968
          o Vivian Leo Thompson 1896
          o Ray Bishop Thompson 1898 - 1970 married? Orvetta Finks
                + Charles Thompson 1925
          o Cuba Thompson 1902 - 1978
          o Francis Thompson - 1904 - 1973
          o Marjorie M Thompson Sturm 1907 - 1997
          o Harry Thompson 1910
    * Mattie Thompson 1872
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Mary on January 08, 2011, 02:16:32 PM
Keep battering at that wall, Mike........it's about all we can do!

When we lived in Germany, we went to the part of Holland still raising Frisian horses and considering themselves "Frisian."  If you look at a map, the Netherlands isn't very far from the coast of England!  So, what you found makes perfect sense.

M
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on January 08, 2011, 03:20:12 PM
Thanks for all the encouragement Mary. I really appreciate it. What I think has been really interesting with all of this is that sometimes a few words from someone outside your head can really make a difference. I never would have found that record if Tom hadn't given me an example from his family.

Likewise it was someone who wasn't even a Thompson that made me go back and take a 1909 death record into consideration. That led to me finding the gravesite and that changed everything.

That's one of the reasons I keep posting things as I learn them. I run the risk of being wrong and looking foolish, most of the time I do both, but if someone else can take that struggle and move another rung up the ladder then it's worth the risk.

Another Irony of this Journey, that person that helped me with the 1909 death record for Albert Thompson was a Coen. It's a very popular Irish name from Northwest Ireland, her family was from Ohio and so was mine (at the time) and our DNA was a decent enough match so I thought I'd contact her. When she told me her DNA was "Frisian" my jaw hit the floor. At the time I was kind of offended because I'm obviously "Irish"! So after that, I think I really set about proving that I'm not Frisian. I really intended to lay out a body of evidence for my own Irishness.

Frisian sounds like something you spray in the bathroom so it doesn't stink anymore. Or, one of those hypo-allergenic dogs.

It's been really hard to come to this. It took months of raking over these numbers and maps and languages. You know, the harder I fought the more apparent it became that I'm fighting myself (as usual). So instead of proving my point, I proved I'm probably some kind of hideous Germanic Dutch Viking Northman thing, which is also what my wife has said all along.

And you should see the smug look on her face!

Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on January 17, 2011, 03:33:30 PM
Other Thompsons descending from Levi in 1834 just contacted me. They are from a different branch and at my father's level but verified my family tree and the connection to Levi. Levi is this man's great great grandfather. My grandfather was his father's cousin. I'm kind of in shock.

Now I think we're supposed to begin some kind of blood ritual or dance around and scream threats at each other. I'm not sure really because this has never happened before.
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Mary on January 18, 2011, 07:16:32 PM
Now Mike......

Calm down-------no blood rituals until AFTER you're sure your new contact doesn't have a significant number of LARGE cousins/brothers!  :)

Seriously, how great that you have found someone to corroborate your family data! Woo  hoo!!
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on January 18, 2011, 07:30:42 PM
It's pretty exciting to know there are other Thompsons from my family alive and still in Indiana! We've traded a few pictures in e-mail and I sent him some of the documents I've collected on Levi. I guess he found me in a Thompson Gen forum. Pretty darn cool. Unless he's a serial killer.

Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Dusevoir on January 21, 2011, 09:22:04 AM
Quote
So in a totally self serving way, I want every male Thompson to test because it will help me find them and they may know more than me...or we could connect the dots until we meet up in the middle.

Me too.........I want every female Thompson to test.    :)

Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Dusevoir on January 21, 2011, 09:33:15 AM
uneven........congratulations!  What a great feeling!

My known Thompsons are from Jeffersonville, Indiana (Clarke County).  They moved to Louisville, Kentucky and then to Paducah, Kentucky. 
   
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on January 21, 2011, 04:46:47 PM
Thanks for the congrats Mary and Dusevoir. I saw a picture of my great grandfather for the first time. That was powerful.

It is a picture from 1926/27 and it contained many of the people I've only just found out about. One of them appears to almost crack a smile, but for the most part it looks like they were attending a "stern-off" to see who could look meanest.

My great grandfather looks pretty mean, but by far his uncle James Thompson takes the cake. He actually looks like the eagle from the muppet show.

From this picture, I do have a bunch of other  surnames with relatives for those people with family finder results. Clifford, Tyler, Swindell, McCann, Cunningham, Sturm and Fennimore. I can account for everyone except Cunningham and Swindell, not sure where they came from.

Dusevoir, what is your last known Thompson in Indiana name and date. My Thompsons are farther north around Monroe, Anderson and Alexandria, but I'm stuck effectively at the 1860 census with Levi born 1834 (Indexed as Lean Thampson by ancestry.com and familysearch.org). I read in an obituary I ordered that Levi Thompson and Mrs (not real helpful) were early residents of Monroe...so they moved in from somewhere. For all I know it could have been southern Indiana.

mike

Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on January 21, 2011, 04:58:04 PM
Dusevoir, I went back and re-read one of your old posts and saw a path:

Quote
Andrew Thomson b. 1839  Dundonald, Ayr, Scotland,
Archibald Thompson  B:  22 June 1677  Abbotshall, Scotland, United Kingdom,
Robert Thompson  B:1707  Antrim, County of Antrim, Province of Ulster, Ireland,
Archibald Thompson  B:1740  Pennsylvania, United States,
Benjamin Thompson  B:25 Mar 1777  Norriton, Montgomery, Pennsylvania, US

Now, there is this gap we are still trying to figure out.

Our known ancestors...

Jacob B Thompson married to Nancy Fuller in  Jeffersonville, Clark, Indiana.                                 

Orlando "Ollie" Lynch Thompson  B. May 1842 in Jeffersonville, Indiana  married to Wilhanetta Y Martin.  In 1850 they lived Louisville, Jefferson, Kentucky.

Alonzo "Lon" B Thompson B. 8 August 1868 married Darthula Green.

Maurice "Morris" L. Thompson B. 1903 in Rankin, Illinois, USA married Alice Paull in Oregon. (my grandparents)

These Thompsons moved to Paducah, Kentucky.



The gap you have is really interesting to me because Levi Thompson 1834 in my tree says he is from Indiana in one census and then Pennsylvania in the others. I've been trying to find him in both places before 1860 with no luck.

mike

Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Dusevoir on January 24, 2011, 07:54:14 AM
Quote
The gap you have is really interesting to me because Levi Thompson 1834 in my tree says he is from Indiana in one census and then Pennsylvania in the others. I've been trying to find him in both places before 1860 with no luck.

mike

I think Benjamin Thompson is Jacob B. Thompson's father in my tree.

I attached an 1850 Indiana census with all the Levi Thompsons going back to 1777.





[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Dusevoir on January 24, 2011, 08:08:59 AM
Quote
From this picture, I do have a bunch of other  surnames with relatives for those people with family finder results.

Family Finder DNA results?   What name do you use? 
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on January 24, 2011, 09:15:25 PM
I haven't done the test, but these are all people that would be genetically related to me within 6 generations so for people who have the test and Thompson and see Finks, Fennimore, Clifford, Williamson..etc maybe there would be a connection.
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on January 24, 2011, 09:25:30 PM
Wow, thanks for that concise census list! I've long suspected the Levi Thompson from Washington Indiana 1831 because I've already had census records in the Thompson family with birth dates up to 8 years off and it would be a very convenient Levi. I disregarded it because there is a consistent Levi Thompson presence in Washington with a marriage record to a different woman.

Now I see that there are several Levi Thompsons in Washington Indiana at the same time and that opens up new possibilities for me. If I follow them both and one disappears from Washington by 1860 then he would be a person of interest.
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Dusevoir on January 25, 2011, 07:51:52 AM
Uneven, you are welcome!

I saw your amazing blog.  I noticed Hunt is a surname in your family.  I have a R. Wayne Hunt in my DNA matches.  Ring a bell?  Here are the surnames he listed......

    * Hunt
    * Wilks
    * Riley
    * Ashlock
    * Williford
    * Gilmer
    * Moore
    * McCullar
    * Holcomb
    * Magee
    * Box
    * Green
    * Wheeler
    * Talley
    * Thomas
    * Light
    * Morris
    * Doss
    * Willson
    * Brooks
    * Price
    * Haile
    * Bagley
    * Cook
    * Wilkins
    * Hurt
    * Nix
    * Gibson
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Dusevoir on January 25, 2011, 08:25:47 AM
Uneven........here is the 1860 Indiana census for all Levi Thompsons.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on January 25, 2011, 09:27:44 PM
You've got him, he's the first guy on the list (misspelled in the census of course!)

In 1860, I've got him nailed because he appears with his wife and some of the children.

In 1850 I'm having particular trouble because there are few Levi's in the area but none that seem to be born in the 1834 - 1836 range. I'll take another look at that census list though, maybe I can weed out a few other Levi's from the 1850 and compare and contrast to find him.

mike
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on January 25, 2011, 09:48:15 PM
I notice there are many more Levi Thompsons in 1860. I also see that one of the Levi's I consider most often 1831 from washington, washington, Indiana stays through the emergence of my Levi Thompson, but another Levi Thompson listed as 1829 in 1850 from washington, washington, seems to  disappear.

I think my Levi married Rosa around 1855. There is no record (I've found out) because of a courthouse fire, but given the age of his first daughter, 1855 is a good bet. Rosa is a lifelong resident of this part of Indiana. She's in VanBuren (where Levi shows in 1860) in 1850.

Levi sometimes lists Indiana as his birthplace and sometimes he's got Pennsylvania assigned. I wish I had some idea of the names of his parents.
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Stirling Thompson on January 27, 2011, 01:02:02 PM
Mike,
I'm not sure you want to totally disregard your James as possibly being Levi. I have come across a couple of instances in my own searches where it appears (for whatever reason) that an individual has swapped first and middle names from one census to the next. It is very frustrating but as Mary says keep slogging away at it. Best of luck!
Stu
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on January 27, 2011, 08:32:30 PM
Thanks Stu.

I really do like that record. Even without the connection to Mary Hughes it sure does have some good signs. Like the names Mary and James and the birth date and proximity to his future wife in the next township over. I've also had several of my relatives use middle names on census records.  I have many suspicions that my Levi Thompson is really "Some Name" Levi Thompson. If you're James Thompson, you may want to go by your middle name so people know which one you are. I've also seen the census dates be horribly wrong. In the case of Albert Thompson, 8 years off.

I am really happy to be as far as I am.
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on January 28, 2011, 05:31:28 AM
Now a gripe about ancestry.com.

Because of people using middle names as first names or completely fabricated names and aliases, searching for military records on ancestry.com can be really hard.

For instance, I've found many records for Levi Thompson from Alexandria, but I've searched several indexes in the Volunteer homes for disabled veterans and seen that they are indexed on legal name only. When I look at the actual record it of a Thompson say John Thompson like the index, but it will also say "Alias Richard Payne". The alias is not in the index. Obviously Richard Payne spilled the beans that he's John Thompson when he got to the home, but that alternate information is not in the index.

Imagine you're in the Payne family now looking for your ancestor, you'll never find him searching on name.

The other frustrating thing about this particular index is that it doesn't have the regiment or company information indexed. So I can't really just look at all the entries from the 34th indiana infantry. Because I've been going through looking at records of everyone with a surname that starts with T, I see all these things and while I'm thinking about the poor Payne family that will never find Richard I have to wonder how many people have seen John Knowlton alias Levi Thompson 34th indiana infantry?
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Dusevoir on January 28, 2011, 03:11:11 PM
A story about James L. Thompson in Washington County, Indiana 1880.

Darn middle names!

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on January 28, 2011, 03:25:36 PM
Thanks Dusevoir! looks like another one bites the dust!
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Mary on January 29, 2011, 08:54:59 AM
Here is a complete roster of the 34th Indiana --- Levi is on page 119.

http://www.civilwarindex.com/armyin/soldiers/34th_in_infantry_soldiers.pdf (http://www.civilwarindex.com/armyin/soldiers/34th_in_infantry_soldiers.pdf)

And here is the regiment history  http://www.civilwarindex.com/armyin/34th_in_infantry.html (http://www.civilwarindex.com/armyin/34th_in_infantry.html)
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: Dusevoir on January 29, 2011, 05:48:07 PM
Mary, That's a great website!  I don't believe I have ever seen it. 
Title: Re: Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Post by: uneven on January 29, 2011, 08:07:39 PM
Thanks Mary! Once again, awesome stuff. I think proving his disability was so hard for him because he mustered out normally in 66. From his pension it seems like he received and injury to his leg on the march home and it ulcerated later.

At least in my branch of the family tree we have a high incidence of type 2 Diabetes. My Grandfather, Dad and I all had or have it. When he talks about a leg ulcerating and not healing it hits close to home. It must have eventually healed but terribly, as he says he was "quite lame" and in 1890 in Hopewell Mercer Ohio his disability is listed as "Stiff Leg".

I wonder if I can get his service record from the military. Something different than the pension record. I'd like to know how he got to Hopewell Ohio in 1890, what was there? I've looked at some maps. There is a union cemetery, but the town doesn't seem to be that large. In fact the union cemetery appears to be on a crossroads in the middle of nowhere.

My heart sunk a little today. I spent the afternoon looking through every cemetery listing in the madison county cemetery web site. They have a lot of great listings of pioneer cemeteries and I was able to find Rosa's dad James' grave (with picture!). Unfortunately, I also found out that the Alexandria Cemetery is a parking lot. It was destroyed and paved over. No one knows who is buried there.

Later relatives are buried in Oddfellows cemetery, but since I'm not finding Levi and Rosa there, I wonder if they are actually in that parking lot.