Author Topic: Varieties of Thom(p)son(e) arms?  (Read 20022 times)

William J. Thompson

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Re: Varieties of Thom(p)son(e) arms?
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2011, 11:25:08 PM »
Sorry.....wrong side of the family!...

That got me thinking. Do I have this right?

British arms go thru all the descendants in the legitimate male line of the original grantee. Does that refer to just the first sons, or all the descendants, that is, all the sons? If I find an English armiger as my xth great-grandfather solely thru the male line, does that have any truck with the College of Arms?

Scots arms in their original form pass directly first-son to first son. But a matriculation "only" requires provable descent from the original. Of course the surname has to be the same...but what if the surname takes a little detour and loops back in generations later? If there's a Scots Thomson armiger back there on Mum's side, and it's a proven relation, is it matriculatable? (I think I just made up a word ;D) In other words, does the matriculation "jump the generations" from you to the original, or does it have to trace a line from you back through each potentially-matriculatable generation to the original?

--Bill

Mary

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Re: Varieties of Thom(p)son(e) arms?
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2011, 10:53:01 AM »
I BELIEVE younger sons also could have gotten arms based on the father's but with differences indicating their position as younger son(s).

I think the 'line' has to be male Thompson >>>>>> Thompson all the way back. I could be wrong too!

Maybe one of our Scottish armigers could jump in on this one??

Mary

Allan Thomson

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Re: Varieties of Thom(p)son(e) arms?
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2011, 02:26:12 PM »
Mary alerted me to your post and asked if I could help... I have just finished my haggis and tatties (forgot the neeps), it is Burns night after all.

I thought I would have a look at your post and I am afraid that whilst I have given an answer I have not been much help !

British arms go thru all the descendants in the legitimate male line of the original grantee. Does that refer to just the first sons, or all the descendants, that is, all the sons? If I find an English armiger as my xth great-grandfather solely thru the male line, does that have any truck with the College of Arms?
On this point - you may be correct (cant say for certain) but I believe that the English system does allow matriculation by any male descendent.    I imagine they would want some proof (copies of birth certificates etc) but if you have these details it may well be worth contacting the 'College of Arms' directly to make this sort of enquiry.

Scots arms in their original form pass directly first-son to first son. But a matriculation "only" requires provable descent from the original. Of course the surname has to be the same...but what if the surname takes a little detour and loops back in generations later? If there's a Scots Thomson armiger back there on Mum's side, and it's a proven relation, is it matriculatable? (I think I just made up a word ;D) In other words, does the matriculation "jump the generations" from you to the original, or does it have to trace a line from you back through each potentially-matriculatable generation to the original?
--Bill
The first part is certainly correct - Scots arms do pass from the original armiger to first son and so on.....  I believe there are instances when the arms descend through a different path but my understanding is that this must be stipulated on the original grant or if path deviates later I presume it can be altered on a later matriculation... (hope this still makes sense !)
The second part of your question is difficult to answer.  I really don't know.  My gut tells me the answer is no, I am reasonably certain it has to pass down through a male line.  Again if you have charted out the descent (family tree) it may be worth asking the Lyon Clerk to give your their opinion.

Sorry I can't be more help.

I would encourage you to visit the website for the Heraldry Society of Scotland http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk where you will find more answers.  The website has many helpful articles and if you are serious about heraldry there is an excellent forum where you can get help from a number of genuine experts in this field.  (I am afraid I only have time to dabble !  :) )

I wish you all the best with your enquiries.

Allan

Mary

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Re: Varieties of Thom(p)son(e) arms?
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2011, 03:36:21 PM »
Thank you for your help, Allan.  I frequent the heraldry website too....but must admit that I sometimes can't make heads or tails out of what they say!  :-[

We sought (and got) some help there when we first decided to form the Thom(p)son society and press on for formal recognition.  And....that's where I first got in contact with several members who were most helpful and John Gaylor who allowed us to use his graphics of all the Thom(p)son arms. DEEPLY appreciated.

How did the rest of your Burns night go?? I saw an article that the Scots were going to 'repackage' their haggis to try to get markets in the US. Probably doing away with the sheep casing thing....... Americans can be a squeamish lot as regards their food :)

Thanks again,

Mary

Allan Thomson

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Re: Varieties of Thom(p)son(e) arms?
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2011, 12:03:31 PM »
Yes -  I also read this week about the new attempt to export Haggis to America.  It came as a shock to me as I hadn't actually realised there was a problem exporting haggis.... seems a shame.  Haggis neeps and tatties is an excellent meal. 

Also.. I would highly recommend chicken stuffed with haggis.

What do you have at the Clan gatherings if you cant have haggis ??  :o

Allan 

Thomas Thompson

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Re: Varieties of Thom(p)son(e) arms?
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2011, 06:40:09 PM »
Answer
           WHISKY   Did I spell it the Scottish way??  I know there is a difference but ??

That is why we yanks usually just lump everything under the umbrella    "Scotch".
In my younger and wilder youthful days I tried to upgrade myself to 'gentleman status by drinking Scotch. Somewhere someone ( a lass probally) told me I had to stop drinking moonshine and clean up my act. I gave it the old college try I must have tried a dozen different brands but didn't like any of them.
I guess I am stuck in the mud as being a hillbilly - I like TN Bourbon. Dickels 90 proff in fact.
Tom

Ernest Thompson

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Re: Varieties of Thom(p)son(e) arms?
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2011, 09:34:25 PM »
I know, I know.
Ern

William J. Thompson

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Re: Varieties of Thom(p)son(e) arms?
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2011, 09:40:49 PM »
I was thinking the other day about how arms were designed, while reading through some quaint and curious volumes of forgotten lore. Some used "stock" image language that stood for specific things, some were punning on the armiger's name, used images of place or interest, etc. I'd always puzzled over the meaning of the Thompson variations. Then, after reading about the Reivers, a dim bulb flickered to life over my cranium.

The majority of English variations are Per fesse ar. and sa., a fesse counterembattled, betw. 3 falcons, counterchanged, belled and jessed or. Crest, an arm embowed in armor quarterly or. and az., the gauntlet ppr. holding the truncheon of a broken lance of the first. Which looks like this: (Staggeringly beautiful engraving from the Thompson One Name website)

What do you see? The field divided between north and south, both sides embattled against the other. Like the Border. Falcons are on both sides -- Thomsons were on both sides of the border. And what is a belled and jessed falcon? A trained bird of prey, who at the behest of its commander, flies out, swoops, attacks, takes, returns. Like the Reivers. Cool, huh? The crest, a broken lance; the Reivers were horsemen whose weapon of choice was the lance, no?

Similarly, the version that is: Or., on a fesse indented az. three estoiles (stars) of the field, on a canton of the second, a sun in splendour of the first., and looks like this:

exhibits similar imagery. The border is jagged in this case, reflecting its uncertainty and changability, perhaps? One can even imagine the space of the a fesse as the no man's land, and within; three stars. Three marches, three wardens? The sun in canton usually represents allegiance to the king, I think. That I'm uncertain on. There are versions, with the a fesse divided per fesse, with the three falcons within, as well. Interesting how that imagery pervades.

Which beings me to our Old Ilk: Ar., a stags head cabossed gu., on a chief az two mullets of the field.

The mullets are spurs, an obvious allusion to the horsey Border Reivers. But the stag? Traditional imagery, perhaps. Or maybe an image of the Thompson lineage -- two horns, two branches with a common root, and many forks on those branches. Sounds like a good theory to me.

Of course, this is all just theory -- my brain whiling away in my spare time. Anyone have any evidence to corroborate any of this, or am I just WAY off in left field?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 10:42:53 AM by William J. Thompson »

uneven

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Re: Varieties of Thom(p)son(e) arms?
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2011, 09:12:37 PM »
The broken lance is my favorite. I've seen it with a different motto though for a different Thompson family. The motto was "broken but not beaten" or something to that effect. If I had the choice, I would pick that motto for my own triumphantly broken family.

On that note. I've been trying to find the significance of the broken lance but all I can find are descriptions of Thompson arms.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 09:21:31 PM by uneven »
Mike Thompson from Michigan..then Indiana..then Pennsylvania and further...probably somewhere there are sheep. Call me Legion for I am many.