Genealogy > Thom(p)son DNA Project
Levi Thompson b. 1834ish lived in Alexandria Indiana..brick wall.
Thomas Thompson:
Hi Mike
I have a question about your comment I copied below:
[One thing I found disconcerting when I asked some of the MacTavish crowd about their DNA was the implication that DNA proves Thompson is MacTavish (something they still seem to hold to on their facebook site). That's a position I don't think even their Chief supports, given articles I saw on electric Scotland. I'm positive some MacTavish's became Thompsons, why dispute it? ]
I also noted a similar thought train on your T hunt blog.(nice blog).
Over the past three years I have been searching the Scottish records for information on any all all Thom's. I know that Black and the MacT's both say that many of the MacT changed their names to Thomson, but I can not find any facts or records of actual name changes. In all of the Argyle parishes I found a single, 1803, entry showing a MacTavish changing his name to Thomson. However, I did find several Thomson's living as a Sept of the Cam[bell family (Auchenbrack). Later at one of the Games, I had a chance meeting with the past President of Clan Campbell USA (C. Thomson) of CA. He was very knowledgeable about his Scottish ancestors and their interactions with the Campbell's. Based on his account and verified by a couple of other sources I am satisfied that in that limited local there were Scottish Thomsons and they were a Sept of the Campbell family. At some future date I hope we can see their DNA test results.
If you know of any Thomson/MacT DNA results or even any 16th-17th century Thomson's associated with the MacT's I would really like to know about them for our records.
Tom
uneven:
Here is some text from the info section of the Clan MacTavish facebook page:
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If your last name or the maiden name of someone in your family line is MacTavish, Thompson, Thomson, Cash, Kash, MacCamish, MacCash, MacCavish, MacComb, MacCombie, MacComich, MacComish, MaComie, Macomie, MacCosh, MacLaws, MacElhose, MacLehose, MacTavish, McTavish, Mactavish, Mactavis, M'Tavish, MacTeague, MacThomas, Stephens, Stephenson, Stevens, Stevenson, Tavish, Tawesson, Teague, Thom, Thomas, Thomason, Thomasson, Tod, or Todd, and all variant spellings you are welcome to join us in celebrating our shared Scottish Highlands heritage.
For those of you interested in DNA. The DNA has been decoded for almost all the Clans. MacTavish and Thompson have the same DNA. Thus supporting the fact that MacTavish and Thompson ARE THE SAME. It has also proven that the MacTavish and the Campbell are in NO WAY related.
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At this point if you're me, then you're wondering "why are there 0 Mactavish's and 2 or 3 Campbells showing in my distant matches?" and what's "The DNA" for a clan?
I just tried to go look at the "proof" again. Their forum keeps asking me to log in and I can't see the thread anymore. It was this odd listing of some modals for clan Donald and others including Campbell. Along with Mactavish. These were 12 or 25 marker modals. It was from the early days of DNA testing. Wish I could get my hands on that again. Very frustrating! It was so unhelpful I just quit talking to them.
They're always "on message". It's creepy. On their facebook page, I felt like they were actively steering people away from DNA as a tool for genealogy. It was as if they were saying "MacTavish is Thompson so don't worry about looking anything up for yourself" (insert Jedi mindtrick wave). In fact that's the reason they gave me the link to their forum, because a member was talking with me about signing up for DNA testing. They interjected with the sales pitch and I got the hint.
Here's that forum link. Doesn't work for me anymore. http://www.clanmactavish.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=871
Anyway, my DNA looked more like Clan Donald than MacTavish. So much so that I began looking at their DNA project!
I remember thinking at the time, well it's nice for them that they found a Thompson who matches up with a MacTavish. I'm not that Thompson.
So that's why I agree with you on questioning the use of DNA as a proof of clan membership. DNA is a double edged sword. If you were clan MacTavish, on some minor level you might have DNA "proof" that a MacTavish and a Thompson are related and you publish that. Then someone like me comes along with a few hundred other "snowflakes" and you start to realize that not even all the Thompsons are related.
Kinship has never required a bloodline. Having read a few things online about the Clan system and the practice of taking the clan's name upon entry. I could acknowledge the remote possibility that MacTavish, or MacThomas or any other person really might pick Thom(p)son. To me, although unorganized, we appear to be the Dominant Thom family in northern Britain. Numbers are on our side.
Here in the U.S. German Thomsens changed their names to Thompson. It's just easier to get along when you're apart of the larger group.
I've read somewhere that the MacTavish clan says they changed their name to Thompson because of retribution. If that were the case then, it would only apply to a few individuals because there are still MacTavish's in existence. Also, it seems to me that that particular game only works if you're joining a larger group of existing Thompsons. Otherwise, who are you blending in with? Considering DNA for all Thompsons only hurts their case further.
By the way, I think I'm having some kind of Matrix moment because reality has remade itself. Not only can I not view the DNA forum post but the electric scotland page I link to in my blog: http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/stoz/thomson2.html seems to be totally missing the information, I believe from Steven MacTavish posted below his father's letter, where he acknowledges that not all Thompsons are related.
uneven:
Oh! I forgot to say. I have no proof that any MacTavish changed their name to Thompson. I also have no proof that they didn't. I'm absolutely certain that somewhere someone will be a Thompson and be a genetic match in some range for a MacTavish. I can't dispute that. Why try?
Along those lines, if you were to tell me that several families named Lee in Hong Kong changed their name to Thompson in order to fit in, gain better employment, have opportunties during British rule...I'd only be able to agree with you. It's your family man, shout it out to the world! I have no reason to dispute it. Now if you tell me that all Thompsons are Lees based on that...then, well I have to be skeptical because nothing is ever all anything.
I think MacTavish has done enough on it's own to disprove it's case by using blanket statements trying to claim all Thom(p)sons and drawing some line between them and Thomsons..splitting them with MacThomas.
There again, if you were to tell me that all Thomsons are MacThomas then I have to be skeptical. Are some Thomsons MacThomas? Absolutely.
Are some Thompsons Thomsons? You'd be insane not to recognize that. All? nope, I can't do it. I just can't. Some, absolutely! Most, probably. All...
Now, having said all that, I can really get behind the "p or not to p" because it just makes sense. I've seen examples of it in census records and in my other families. It's a simple spelling change. Happens all the time. Who cares if the court clerk puts a "p" in your name? All you want is to avoid a noose!
My great grandfather is Lloyd Seelye. He spells his name two different ways. Seely and Seelye. From him on it's spelled Seelye. As you go back in time you can see members of the family alternating it's spelling as it suited them until a few generations above Lloyd, there is no "e" on the end and it stays that way until you get back to Britain. My Grandmother is no less a Seely because of the "e" tacked on to her name.
uneven:
Okay. These are the kinds of statements I think are unsupportable (from the Clan MacTavish facebook page):
"Thus supporting the fact that MacTavish and Thompson ARE THE SAME. It has also proven that the MacTavish and the Campbell are in NO WAY related."
Forgetting for a moment what they're saying about Thompson...look at what they say about Campbell!
You can't prove that. You can't prove that two whole surnames are not in any way related. Until every single MacTavish and Campbell on the planet have been tested you can't even get close to that statement. Even then if they were all tested you'd have to exhume every corpse and test it, because the linking person may have died.
Further if MacTavish is Thompson then you're left with the daunting task of proving that every Thompson on the planet in no way matches a Campbell.
William J. Thompson:
--- Quote from: uneven on December 03, 2010, 05:08:53 AM ---Have you done any DNA testing? It hasn't been that helpful for me yet, but I think that is because participation among Thom(p)sons is pretty light compared to our biomass on the planet.
--- End quote ---
I haven't made the DNA plunge yet...I'm still trying to make sense of how it all works! Too many numbers for my brain. :-\ When I save my pennies, I may pop for a chromosomal comparo to see what comes up. But as you've found, I fear I may just end up a "citizen of the world."
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