PRESBYTERIAN & COVENATER SCOTS

[Thomas Thompson]

   I think many of us have over looked the possibility of finding holes in our brick walls through the rolls of Scottish Presbyterians.
I found nearly three pages of Thomson's persecuted because of their religious beliefs. Some of them were banished to East New Jersey, 1685.
Although many Scots came to New England and New York, they never settled there in such numbers as to leave as great an impression as they did in New Jersey, PA and the South. Between the years 1730 to 1775, the Scottish emigration into PA often exceeded 10,000 in  a single year. In 1736, it was recorded, there were 1,000 families waiting in Belfast for ships to bring them to America. Rev. John Cuthbertson, a Presbyterian missionary (1751-1790,
Rev Charles Clinton Beatty, the first Presbyterian missionary to cross the Allegheny Mt. into western PA, both left JOURNALS.

  WHILE THE MAJORITY OF THE SETTLERS CAME BY THE WAY OF ULSTER, AND WHILE THERE WERE LARGE SETTLEMENTS OF GERMANS AND WELSH throughout Pa (the Quaker settlements did not extend far beyond Philadelphia), an outstanding feature of these JOURNALS , and those of other missionaries, is that almost every family name mentioned in them is pure Scots.

   At the beginning of the Revolutionary War there were nearly 70 communities of Scots/Ulster-Scots in Main, New Hampshire, Vermont, Ma. and Connecticut., 30-40 in New York, 50-60 in New Jersey, more than 130 in PA and Delaware, more than 100 in VA, Ma, and E TN. 50 in NC, about 70 in SC and GA. In all, about 500 Scottish Presbyterian settlements (not including English Pres. in NY and NJ.)

   The first voice publicly raised in America to dissolve all connection with GB (Mecklenburg & West-Moreland Resolutions) came not from the Puritans of new England, nor the Dutch of NY, nor the Planters of VA -  but from the Ulster Scottish Presbyterians. (History of the U.S., v 5,p77, Boston 1861).

  A few names: William Thomson 1685 banished to NJ., Archibald Thompson (History of York Co PA), Donald Thomson Leith to NE. 1685. Marriagesz; Agnes Thomson m Sam Stewart 1771, Agnes m Joh Martin, 1770, Janet m John Mooney 1773, Sarah William Loughhead, 1765, Jean m George Williams,1752, Joh m Mary Stevenson 1757, John m Mary Sloan 1764, Joh m Mary Paterson 1773, Mary m W. Greenlie, 1764, Mary m Robert McKee 1775, Robert m Sally Mitchel 1773, W. m Jean Duncan 1769, Wm. m Jean Johnston 1772, Ann Thompson m Thomas Morton 1761. Baptisms: David 1770, Sarah1773, Wm 1788- all children of Wm.  Elizabeth 1762, Isaac 1752, Issac 1758, Janet 1761, Jean 1759, Jean 1763, Joh 1757, Susannah 1762 all children of John/Jo.   Jean 1760, John 1764, Rosanna 1764 ch of James.

James Thompson, indentured servant in 1699, to NE,
David Thompson, Elizabethtown m. Jane Boone 1740,
John Thomson to Chesenut Level PA 1732,

  References: Dane Love, "Tales from the Killing times"  "Scottish Kirkyards" website www.dane-love.co.uk.  P. Hume Brown "Scotland A Short History" Nithsdale Covenanting Trail, " In the Footsteps of the Martyrs" David Roy "The Covenanters" R. Dalziel,  "The Covenanters", "History of Scotland" The Scottish Covenanter Memorials Association website can visited at : www.covenanter.org.uk
Cumnock and surrounding areas on line community forum:

Tom

[uneven]

Excellent post.

I've read in several books and online that for a lack of Presbyterian Ministers on the frontier many Scots and Scots Irish became Baptists..which would seem to be the path of my own family. I'm not sure if they keep records as nicely as the Presbyterians, but it's always worth a shot.

Tom, do you know of a good way of contacting these churches or other resources for searching their memberships? I've been afraid to pursue it. You know I'd love to find a baptism record or something for Levi 1834 in Pennsylvania, but it's a big place and I bet there are a lot of churches to hunt through.

Mike

[Thomas Thompson]

HI
  Sorry, I don't know of a link to church membership records.
A uncle requested help in locating his TN family history. Over the Thanksgiving holidays we (Mary) found a listing of cemeteries that had his particular name. We visited it and, lo-and-behold, found  tombstones listing his entire family and many of his unknown relatives. That was a successful hunt.
  I have a listing of  of surname tombstones in Scotland. It lists the % of Thoms vs other surnames in that  particular cemetery. I use it to locate Thoms communities. I suggest you contact possible PA county historical groups and query for a listing of all cemeteries in your ancestors communities.It is not a great tip but the only one off the top of my head.
Tom

[uneven]

Thanks Tom. Yeah only having "Pennsylvania" is awful. I'd like to get my hands on a town for this guy. Until then, I'd be left trying to hunt through every Presbyterian or Baptist church in the state.

The biggest reason I ask about approaching churches is that I'm thinking of cold calling Baptist churches in the Madison Indiana area to see how old they are and if they have any records going back to the 1870s. I think it's a pretty tall order. I checked with the United Methodist Church...it was kind of a long shot...they didn't have anything in that timeframe for my people.

How do you approach calling a Church to get this kind of information? They don't owe me anything and I'm asking for a bunch of their time.

mike

[Thomas Thompson]

Mike
  A couple of suggestions: Don't call - write a letter stating you request and dates, include a self addressed / stamped envelope. Narrow your search area by first reviewing census, historical societies reports, birth/marriages reports, newspaper records and private history books. Some have had success with the Mormon Church records - have you tried that?
Tom

[uneven]

I've used the online Mormon records at familysearch.org to verify some things. They rely heavilly on the 1880 Census and so have no record of my particular Levi Thompson. Although they do have the rest of the family without him in 1880. Through Ancestry.com I was able to find Levi in 1870 and 1860 with his wife and children as appropriate. Both of those census records are in Madison County Indiana. In 1860 he's not listed on his own property but as a family living with the Brodericks in VanBuren Township. Which made me think they were hired labor or tenant farmers. I tried to find a relationship between the Brodericks and his wife Rosa or Rosanna (sisters or brothers) of either of the two heads of household, but I couldn't find any. In 1870 he's no longer living with the Broderick family and he has moved to Alexandria.

When I pick up on him in 1860 he's already married with two children. I haven't yet found a marriage record for Rosa or Rosanna and Levi although I did find one for John L Thompson and Rosanna Steele from further North. Rosanna states that she was born in Indiana and that seems pretty solid. Levi has Indiana on the 1860 Census and Pennsylvania on the 1870. In 1880 the children list Pennsylvania for their father, but by 1900 they just list X.

I believe 1850 will be my last chance to find Levi in the census because he will be about 16 years old and could be listed with a household. Before that, people are tick marks so unless I get his father by 1850 I'm sort of sunk in the census. I could not find a tombstone record with the military so I don't believe he ever got one. His Children's Children seem to be Baptists generally so I thought maybe I could follow them to a "home" church.

I've searched for Levi Thompson in Pennsylvania and Indiana born 1835, but I can't find him. I've seen promising records for Levi Thompsons born in 1831. His son Albert had  census records that were off by 8 years on the birth year so all of those could be possibilities. If I could find his spouses last name or a marriage record that might help to sort some things out.

I sent a message to the Madison County Historical society last night (I need to add them to the list of fine establishments to become a member of) asking them for information on local churches in that timeframe. Then I would know who to write to.

mike

[Thomas Thompson]

Mike

  It appears that you have covered all the available sources and still have a brick wall. I can not offer any new areas that you have not covered.
At that period of our history quite a few of our ancestors were farmed out to apprenticeships, is it possible that your Levi might have been trained into a particular trade. Do you have the Broderick's in a trade other than farming?  I think his association with them might be a clue.
Tom

[uneven]

Thanks Tom. I do wonder about the apprenticeship thing. I recall seeing records of a Levi in Ohio I think, that was living with a different family and was the only Thompson. I should try to find that record again. I was sort of afraid of it at the time because it was just a floating Thompson...then again, that could be just right.

I was able to find the Brodericks in the 1850 Census. Ironically they were living with a "Thomas" family. It didn't have a Levi in it, or even a child his age, but it was kind of funny. I do think there is probably some connection I'm not seeing there.

I think I'll try to order Albert's death certificate, since he died in 1909 there should be a record for him. Maybe that will list information about his parents beyond what I've already gathered. I imagine, you've probably ordered these kinds of records before (maybe even in Indiana). If so, how terrible was that process?

mike

[Parker Thomson]

I am no historian, but the historical timing of the Protestant Reformation in Scotland is interesting.  Most consider this to be about 1560 and spearheaded by John Knox.  As I was reading the text of "The Curse" of 1525 by Gavin Dunbar, Archbishop of Glasgow - it made me wonder which of the accursed border clan Scots would not want to leave the Catholic church and become a Presbyterian. It makes one wonder if this curse was in some way a general sentiment among the English and their allies, thus giving an impetus to the Protestant Reformation in Scotland.  However, we have to thank this fellow for causing the name Thomson to be engraved in stone, thus proving that we were once a clan in our own right. 

[Forum_mgr]

Parker

I do a lot of research but not necessarily on this topic. Your thoughts are very interesting.....but didn't the curse only apply to lowland, reiving clans? Was the swing away from the Catholic church to the Protestant as prevalent among the highland clans too?

F.M.

[Parker Thomson]

My whole point is that the struggle between Protestantism and Catholicism is reflected in the tone of Archbishop Gavin Dubar's curse.  Granted, his curse was concerning the lawlessness of the Border regions, but the Catholic church also considered the Protestants a break with their own law.  The tone of the lengthy curse and condemnation of these Scots to "the pit of hell" was another indication of growing tensions. The curse was issued 1n 1525 and I would say it was one of many events including the persecutions of Mary Tudor (Bloody Mary) that led to the Scottish Protestant Reformation of 1560. The early beginnings of Scottish reformation that culminated more officially in 1560 started about the same time of the "Curse" from the Archbishop of Glasgow 1525. So my point is rather general about the "curse" being some kind of signal. It's more like a historical  hypothesis than a theory.